So, having issued 57 consultation documents, only three persons/organisations voiced any concerns. None of those consulted had any complaints about the publication or availability of outcomes of cases, only the idea that these should be ACTIVELY publicised. Not that contentious or sinister really, is it? As for the Fitness to Practice report and the manner in which the GCC conducts its business, they seem pretty reasonable, open and transparent to me. Reply
Seems like a lot of assumption has been included in this article. Do you know for certain that the reservations were from chiropractic organisations? Reply
Just seems to me that you’re trying to build up some kind of ‘cover up’ or conspiracy that doesn’t exist. Do you think that in the real world any profession is whiter than white? Ever heard of a dodgy mechanic, electrician etc. Does that mean that ALL of those in these professions are untrustworthy? At least chiropractic is regulated by the GCC, and you appear to have used this to your advantage in lodging your blanket complaint. I’m really genuinely interested in the following: 1) What is the motivation behind the complaints? 2) What do you hope to achieve? Reply
Tom It’s there in black and white for all to see. Some respondents to the consultation want some things not publicised. No, I don’t think that every other profession is whiter than white and I have not said so. Besides, why should what mechanics do or not do be relevant to whether some chiropractors are abiding by their CoP or not? It is a straw man. Nor have I said that all chiropractors are ‘untrustworthy’. However, some would appear to be not abiding by their CoP. I am unclear what you mean about me using the fact that chiropractors (not chiropractic itself) are regulated by the GCC to my advantage. The GCC are there to regulate chiropractors, so they are the ones to make complaints to. Your question about my motivation is irrelevant: the question that is being avoided is whether some chiropractors are contravening their CoP by making the claims they do. Do you think they have the right level of evidence required by the CoP for all conditions claimed? What do I hope to achieve? Proper regulation of chiropractors so that the public are protected. Reply
LoL Zeno is on record saying that he wanted to create as much mischief for the GCC as he could. Linking this to the Singh case is easy if you dig around in the blogs. His complaints are clearly vexatious in some cases he even complains that chiropractors claim to treat low back pain. His site also makes fun of the profession linking it to Nazi Germany. Now he tries to pretend that he wants to uphold the standards of regulation. Please try and be honest Zeno. Reply
The link to the BCA’s libel case against Simon is clear. The BCA’s actions highlighted chiropractic and started many looking into what chiropractors were claiming and what proper evidence there was for these claims. However, as I have already said, the motivation is utterly irrelevant: the question at hand is whether chiropractors are abiding by the rules they have all signed up to? If not, why not and what is being done about it? It might reflect better on chiropractors if they focussed on getting evidence that would satisfy the ASA than trying to build straw men. Reply
Zeno, I’m afraid your insistence that your motives are irrelevant doesn’t wash. If your purpose were genuinely protection of the public, you would be finding much more important battles to fight and yet I don’t see you campaigning with anything like the same enthusiasm on any other topic. The “one battle at a time” argument doesn’t wash either. It is now some time since you made your 500+ complaints to the GCC who I understand are in the process of dealing with them. So, now that the ball is rolling, you have plenty of time to turn your attention to other matters. After all, it didn’t take very long for you, a man of evident resourcefulness, to compile and submit your complaint to the GCC. If your particular concern is with complementary medicine, why have you not complained to the General Osteopathic Council about the rather greater number of osteopaths in the UK who make claims at least the equal of those made by chiropractors? We can only assume that doing so would not fit your agenda. Your activities belie the notion that you are concerned with public safety. They smack rather more of an irrational, obsessive campaign against chiropractors for the purpose simply of giving sycophantic support to Simon Singh. Reply
David Despite your claim to the contrary, you obviously have little knowledge or understanding of the process and what is currently happening. However, I won’t bore you with the details as I doubt you’re really that interested. You also have no knowledge of me or what I have done in the past with regard to ‘protecting the public’: you’ve just assumed you know. Wrongly. And who are you to try to insist I fight battles you think are important? Do I tell you how to spend your spare time? But then again, if you think there are other battles to be fought, what exactly are you doing about it? Doing something about them might be more productive than posting ill-informed diatribes. Reply
Zeno, Ooh! Touchy! The point, which you chose to side-step, is that you claim to be acting purely for the public safety but your actions suggest otherwise. If you feel so passionately about the claims that chiropractors make, why are you so tolerant of the claims that others make? Reply
You’re the one with the fancy footwork – I answered your point about complaining about others. You seemed to have missed it. Reply
Zeno, You’re right, if you have answered my point, I can’t see it in your reply. So, I’ll ask an even simpler question. Have you, or will you in the near future, complain to the General Osteopathic Council about the many hundreds of osteopaths in the UK who claim to be able to treat childhood disorders such as infantile colic, sleep disturbance and asthma? And if not, why is that not as big a concern for you as the claims that some chiropractors make? Reply
Zeno, there are indeed several future blog posts in there on the subject of the requirements set out by the GCC and the apparent failure, in many cases, of its registrants to abide by them. I must say that I am looking forward, immensely, to your further observations in 2010 and beyond. I really don’t know where you find time to slay all the various dragons you go after. It’s very telling that included in the responses to the GCC’s consultation document that there was one from respondents who had “concerns about encouraging publicity in relation to PCC Hearings which reflects badly on the individual chiropractor and the profession at large”. I wonder if they were McTimoney chiropractors? It’s worth remembering that in June 2009, in a confidential letter that the McTimoney Chiropractic Association sent out to their members in a panic about the potentially dubious contents of their websites, it said… …we strongly suggest you do NOT discuss this with others, especially patients. Firstly it would not be ethical to burden patients with this… http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2009/06/chiropractors-told-to-take-down-their.html …because that reads to me like the Association is desperate not to scare off its members’ lucrative customer base. @ David You claim that the GCC conducts its business in a “pretty reasonable, open and transparent” manner. I disagree. The GCC presently claims that, The main treatments of chiropractic have been shown consistently in reviews to be more effective than the treatments to which they have been compared and that chiropractic intervention, including manipulation, is: Safe, effective and cost-effective in reducing referral to secondary care. http://www.gcc-uk.org/files/link_file/Musculoskeletal_Pathway_for_Back_Pain_Advice_Note_FINAL_Dec09.pdf However, that appears to be a misrepresentation of the facts, as recent research has shown chiropractic to be less safe and no more effective than conventional treatments that are much cheaper . But still the GCC, and others, continue to (unreasonably, IMO) stand by their claims for the evidence for chiropractic despite controversy surrounding the studies they promote, such as the 2004 UK BEAM Trial, and the 1990 Meade report and its follow-up. The GCC also promotes the European guidelines for the management of low back pain which, although the GCC implies that they recommend chiropractic, only briefly mention spinal manipulation. See here for a comprehensive round-up of the problem: http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=83 Another good example of questionable GCC behaviour can be found in a July 2004 letter which the GCC sent to Alastair McLellan, editor of the Health Service Journal. In the letter, the GCC scolded Mr McLellan for publishing an article by Professor Edzard Ernst entitled ‘Beyond The Fringe’. It denounced it as being “nothing more than an ill-founded attack on UK chiropractors”, before going on to claim that Professor Edzard Ernst “…refuses to engage in any meaningful dialogue with the UK chiropractic profession.” Well, just over a year later, Professor Ernst attended one of the GCC’s meetings, and the following is what the GCC chose to write about his visit in its open minutes of that meeting: A copy of Professor Ernst’s presentation is attached as Appendix A to these Minutes. Questions to Professor Ernst in the subsequent debate included: • Are you familiar with the work of Herzog et al regarding the physical characteristics of cervical spine manipulation and its effect on the vertebral artery? • How do you rationalise your view of the chiropractic profession as responsible for most serious adverse affects when osteopaths, some physiotherapists and other professionals also engage on a global basis in manipulation of the cervical spine? • Why do you say that osteopaths use mobilisation, which is inherently safer and chiropractors only manipulate, which carries more risk? • Where is your evidence of “serious adverse events, such as stroke (sometimes fatal) are regularly reported”? http://www.gcc-uk.org/files/link_file/C-040805-Open1.pdf Intriguingly, Appendix A, and the minutes of the ensuing debate, seem to be for chiropractors’ eyes only. Finally, other (apparently misleading) GCC documents can be found in the correspondence that the activist group, Action for Victims of Chiropractic, has conducted with it over the past five years. Scroll through its news page here: http://www.chirovictims.org.uk/victims/news.html Very revealing. Reply
David You just don’t seem to get it do you? You have no idea what I have done in the past, what I am currently working on or what I’m planning for the future, yet you continue to jump to your very own (wrong) conclusions. Reply
David Having just read through this thread, I have to wonder what your purpose is? You say, “Your activities belie the notion that you are concerned with public safety.” Somebody puts a lot of time and work into trying to get false claims and other irregularities that could impinge on people’s health put right and you say this person isn’t really concerned with public safety but is just “giving sycophantic support to Simon Singh”. Do you think Zeno is in love with Simon? Do you think Zeno is hoping that, if he works hard enough at exposing the irregularities in the chiro industry, then there’s a chance Simon will leave his wife for him? Honestly, David! Nobody is denying that the BCA’s disastrous decision to sue Simon Singh is the catalyst that encouraged Zeno (and others) to investigate and highlight the way the BCA and GCC operate and if you want to believe it’s because Zeno is smitten with Simon, that’s fine. But your repeated goading, while it may make you feel better, isn’t actually going to make an iota of difference to anything Zeno does and I’m afraid your comments throughout this blog are making you appear “irrational and obsessive”. http://www.skepticat.org/2009/10/chiropractic-is-crap/ Reply
@ Zeno I can draw only two possible conclusions from your refusal. 1) Your actions are indeed driven more by a desire to denigrate chiropractors than protect the public. 2) You wish to “keep your powder dry” with respect to whatever you’re hatching next. If this is the case, it can only be in order to achieve maximum glory for you. If you have any public health/safety concerns, you surely would feel compelled to raise them at the earliest opportunity. @ Blue Wode You’ve obviously graduated (with honours) from the Edzard Ernst school of spin. @ Skepticat What are you waffling on about? Sycophant: –noun a self-seeking, servile flatterer; fawning parasite. Synonyms: toady, yes man, flunky, fawner, flatterer. Reply
Feel free to draw whatever conclusions your limited information, but bountiful imagination, allow. It makes not one jot of a difference! Reply
David Which answers my point how, exactly? If you’re not implying Zeno has some kind of infatuation with Simon, what are you trying to imply? What reason do you think Zeno might have for wanting to give ‘sycophantic support’ to him? Come on, out with it. Reply
Skepticat Sycophancy & infatuation are not the same thing. Honest. Love the weird side argument though. Reply
Jackie You appear to have misread my post. Either that, or my point is too difficult for you. Sorry about that. Perhaps get an adult to help you? Glad you’re enjoying the weird argument. You can thank David for starting it. http://www.skepticat.org/2009/12/how-the-spine-wizards-tried-to-trap-me/ Reply
@ Skepticat I’m not going to engage with you. I have yet to read a posting you have made that had any merit. You appear to be here only to throw insults at other contributors and to try to attract attention to your own, sad little blog. Reply
Actually, David, I came here to challenge your insult to Zeno. You’ve made a couple of extremely nasty assertions about him that you are unable to justify. If you behave like that, you can expect to be challenged. If you don’t like being challenged, try engaging your brain before trolling someone’s blog. Yes, I am pleased to publicise my own blog. I hope you don’t find it too cerebrally challenging. Here’s a quick link to all my posts about chiroquacks: http://www.skepticat.org/category/alternative-therapies/chiropractic-alternative-therapies/ Reply
I only recently noticed the war going on here. I’m sure Zeno must be a very successful blog-writers to get all this attention. I have just left a comment in another of his posts, however, it seems that there are more educated guests here (David) rather than just lunatics fighting very hard to prove themselves to themselves. I find it extremely funny that there some jobless people out there who choose to keep themselves occupied by claiming to care about the public when they actually try to discredit a profession that has been around for more than a century and, that most of all, is respected worldwide exactly for that reason; helping the public by helping millions of suffering patients (whether you like it or not). I guess that’s the advent of internet. Who would know about Zeno and Skeptical if the internet didn’t exist? Skeptical, do you actually hold any degrees? (I don’t mean in your hands) Zeno, are you also on youtube? that would be hilarious! A strong word of advice: PLEASE, DO NOT HELP THE PUBLIC. THEY CAN HELP THEMSELVES. GET A JOB INSTEAD. Regards, Dr N.E.O. MD DC MChiro p.s.: Zeno, I have learned, now, how to put my name at the beginning of my post, but please do not insult the public’s intelligence. Surely, if anyone needed help with serious health matters your blog would be the last place to visit. Furthermore, I assume that by ‘wanting to help the public’ you mean they should listen you you, invisible God, rather than a Governmental Body. I should have brought a dictionary for xmas and read again the definition of ‘ignorant arrogance’. Good luck buddy. May the cyber-world be with you. Dr N.E.O. MD DC MChiro Reply
Jackie W/N.E.O. I still don’t know how to address you. That seems to be three different names/pseudonyms you’ve used today. Either that or you have some guests all using the same PC. It doesn’t matter of course — it’s just courteous. Anyway, you said: I have just left a comment in another of his posts, however, it seems that there are more educated guests here (David) rather than just lunatics fighting very hard to prove themselves to themselves. That’s just two ad hominems. Nothing that actually helps any discussion or debate. I find it extremely funny that there some jobless people out there… Eh? What jobless people? And why would you find that funny? Don’t bother answering — it’s irrelevant. who choose to keep themselves occupied by claiming to care about the public when they actually try to discredit a profession… Again, what do know of my motives? …that has been around for more than a century and, that most of all, is respected worldwide exactly for that reason That’s an appeal to antiquity and an ad populum and both are fallacious. Witchcraft has been around for even longer, but that doesn’t mean it works or should be respected. …helping the public by helping millions of suffering patients (whether you like it or not). Now you get to the nub of the problem: where’s the good evidence that it does and how robust is that evidence? I guess that’s the advent of internet. Who would know about Zeno and Skeptical [sic] if the internet didn’t exist? I assume you’re referring to Skepticat? And what has that got to do with anything? Skeptical, do you actually hold any degrees? (I don’t mean in your hands) Just another ad hominem. Zeno, are you also on youtube? that would be hilarious! And another. A strong word of advice: PLEASE, DO NOT HELP THE PUBLIC. THEY CAN HELP THEMSELVES. GET A JOB INSTEAD. Why the shouty language? Never mind, I’m not sure I’m inclined to take your advice anyway, particularly when you have given me no cogent reason to do so. What’s this fixation with jobs? Again, it matters not one jot, because it is irrelevant. p.s.: Zeno, I have learned, now, how to put my name at the beginning of my post Good. …but please do not insult the public’s intelligence. Please elucidate. Surely, if anyone needed help with serious health matters your blog would be the last place to visit. Where do you think I am giving medical advice? Have you read the Comment Guide yet? It says (among other things): Nothing on this website should be construed as medical advice. If you have a medical condition or think that you might or are worried about your health, consult your properly medically qualified GP, not a Quack. Anyway… Furthermore, I assume that by ‘wanting to help the public’ you mean they should listen you you, invisible God, rather than a Governmental Body. If by ‘a Governmental Body’, you mean the General Chiropractic Council, then it seems clear that chiropractors are not listening to them either. Not that they’ve been particularly vocal about asking chiropractors if they wouldn’t mind awfully adhering to their own Code of Conduct. Perhaps you could tell me what you think the GCC is there for? Why do they have a Code of Conduct? So it can be ignored by whoever takes a notion to? I should have brought a dictionary for xmas and read again the definition of ‘ignorant arrogance’. Again, if you care to point out where you think my knowledge is lacking… Good luck buddy. May the cyber-world be with you. I don’t think I want to be your buddy, but if you are going to continue to comment on my blog, please do so civilly and try to address arguments properly. I will point you yet again towards the Comment Guide for a brief introduction to argumentation and the rules on commenting on my blog. Reply
I apologize if have touched/hurt someone’s sensitivity by my ‘uncivilized’ comments; however, I will engage you no more on this nonsense as I see no constructive outcomes, regardless of writing style. As someone on the previous posts said, if you meet one dodgy mechanic does not mean all mechanics are. It is no up to me to judge or scrutinize the work of the GCC, GMC ot any other professional body. I’m sure someone above me is. Might that be you? Anyway, good work; keep it up. Goodbye. Reply
I had one of those pains recently. It lasted a few weeks. I treated it by buying a laptop table. I’ve had no problem since. So fortunately, I didn’t waste my money on chiropractic, in spite of their best efforts to snare me. http://www.skepticat.org/2009/12/how-the-spine-wizards-tried-to-trap-me/ Reply
Nothing to do with regulation of chiros. It was a question. And skepticat, that is the kind of advice chiropractors give. It’s called work station ergonomics. No chance of me reading that link either if your recent reply is anything to go by. Reply
Yes, Tom, but the difference between a lap top table and an appointment with a chiropractor is about £80. And since you’re scared of clicking my link, I’ll save you the bother and c & p here: “On the subject of what treatment I needed, she was more forthcoming: if I made an appointment there and then for a full examination at their clinic, I could have it for the bargain price of £30 instead of the usual £95. I didn’t enquire about the price of the “several sessions” of treatment she thought I might need but asked instead whether simply making a concerted effort to improve my posture might help. “I’d still recommend treatment because the longer you leave a problem untreated, the greater the danger of degenerative disease,” came the predictable reply… …The next day I bought a £15 laptop table from IKEA and my shoulders haven’t ached since.” Reply
Ha Ha Ha! Correct me if i’m wrong but I do believe Skepticat just accused me of being a bit chicken!? What powers of intellect you have at your disposal. And nope, even though you’re desperate for me to read below that point. Zeno, this individual is lowering the standard of your blogs. Reply
Tom said: “Zeno, this individual is lowering the standard of your blogs.” Nope, I don’t think you need any help at all. Reply
Nice try Zeno, I expected better from you to be honest. I will leave your blog now and let you know that even though I don’t agree with your views I respect them, as I would any other person. I don’t feel that skepticat shares the same basic manners, therefore, I don’t wish to continue visiting your site. I wish you and your family well. Goodbye. Reply
Good riddance. If you can’t take it, don’t dish it out. What lowers the standard of this blog is that every chiro that has commented here has avoided the issues and resorted to ad hominem attacks instead. No, I don’t respect people who do that. Reply