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	<title>Comments on: The Cracklash begins</title>
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	<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/06/the-cracklash-begins/</link>
	<description>The random thoughts of a sceptical activist</description>
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		<title>By: Stefaan Vossen</title>
		<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/06/the-cracklash-begins/comment-page-1/#comment-6907</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefaan Vossen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jul 2010 10:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenosblog.com/?p=1807#comment-6907</guid>
		<description>@BW
Another BlueWode #fail?
You know, you are only feeding the suspicions of malice in avoiding constructive debate...
Maybe that is just not your goal, that could be true of course. That does of course make you a heckler, rather than a skeptic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@BW<br />
Another BlueWode #fail?<br />
You know, you are only feeding the suspicions of malice in avoiding constructive debate&#8230;<br />
Maybe that is just not your goal, that could be true of course. That does of course make you a heckler, rather than a skeptic.</p>
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		<title>By: Stefaan Vossen</title>
		<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/06/the-cracklash-begins/comment-page-1/#comment-6777</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefaan Vossen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jul 2010 12:11:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenosblog.com/?p=1807#comment-6777</guid>
		<description>ps I think it can be quite releveant when asking for &quot;the scientific evidence&quot; for me to ask the question: scientific evidence for what?&quot; And if your answer is &quot;the subluxation theory&quot;, the I do, indeed want to know what your understanding of this theory is, as depending on your interpretation/understanding of it it will be easy/difficult/impossible to provide you with information/evidence.
Kind regards,
Stefaan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ps I think it can be quite releveant when asking for &#8220;the scientific evidence&#8221; for me to ask the question: scientific evidence for what?&#8221; And if your answer is &#8220;the subluxation theory&#8221;, the I do, indeed want to know what your understanding of this theory is, as depending on your interpretation/understanding of it it will be easy/difficult/impossible to provide you with information/evidence.<br />
Kind regards,<br />
Stefaan</p>
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		<title>By: Stefaan Vossen</title>
		<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/06/the-cracklash-begins/comment-page-1/#comment-6647</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefaan Vossen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jun 2010 18:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenosblog.com/?p=1807#comment-6647</guid>
		<description>@Blue Wode
I think you&#039;ll find the GCC fairly non-judgmental on this topic, but by all means ask them. I would love to know what you personally understand it to be though. Having looked into the topic so extensively I would expect you to be quite knowledgable on what it is you critique. It would just make conversing without cross-wires so much easier.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Blue Wode<br />
I think you&#8217;ll find the GCC fairly non-judgmental on this topic, but by all means ask them. I would love to know what you personally understand it to be though. Having looked into the topic so extensively I would expect you to be quite knowledgable on what it is you critique. It would just make conversing without cross-wires so much easier.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Lanigan</title>
		<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/06/the-cracklash-begins/comment-page-1/#comment-6646</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Lanigan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jun 2010 18:47:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenosblog.com/?p=1807#comment-6646</guid>
		<description>Blue wode rightly asks &quot;What happened to that scientific evidence remains a mystery&quot;. The GCC Chief Executive Margaret Coats also wrote to me   claiming “The GCC subluxation was based on the WHO definition and 160 people, including experts and national authorities and professional and NGO’s, in over 54 countries had reviewed this document prior to publication&quot; 

So its fair to say the GCC is not a reliable source of information for a debate on subluxation  and  to quote from them only undermines any discussion questioning the existence of  subluxations which are documented both in the medical and chiropractic literature. 

The medical profession recognise subluxation in relation to hypermobility of a spinal joint so presumably dysfunction also applies to hypo mobility of a joint or am I mistaken?? The question sceptics have every right to ask; what is the scientific evidence for the theory behind “vertebral subluxation complex”  and sadly I would have to hold up my hands and say, not a lot. 

Before sceptics get too excited I would qualify that by saying the anatomical and physiological principles are there to make subluxation theory a legitimate hypothesis for scientific investigation and I would be delighted if chiropractic researchers put some of their resources into subluxation theory  rather than  the more profitable area of back pain. In the mean time my clients and I will just have to rely on anecdotes, not a perfect situation, but if they are happy with that so am I, we are where we are.

 Having said that the president of the British Chiropractic Association Richard Brown has this week come out in agreement with the skeptic view of  “subluxation”. As his “plethora of evidence” was rubished last year. I dont suppose traditional chiropractors should be too worried by anyone now trying to claim that Richard Brown is a reliable source because it suits a particular point of view. I believe thats called &quot;confirmation bias&quot;


The medical profession were making dodgy claims in 1998, perhaps they have cleaned up their act, better than the BCA did,
http://ukpmc.ac.uk/articles/PMC1113581</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blue wode rightly asks &#8220;What happened to that scientific evidence remains a mystery&#8221;. The GCC Chief Executive Margaret Coats also wrote to me   claiming “The GCC subluxation was based on the WHO definition and 160 people, including experts and national authorities and professional and NGO’s, in over 54 countries had reviewed this document prior to publication&#8221; </p>
<p>So its fair to say the GCC is not a reliable source of information for a debate on subluxation  and  to quote from them only undermines any discussion questioning the existence of  subluxations which are documented both in the medical and chiropractic literature. </p>
<p>The medical profession recognise subluxation in relation to hypermobility of a spinal joint so presumably dysfunction also applies to hypo mobility of a joint or am I mistaken?? The question sceptics have every right to ask; what is the scientific evidence for the theory behind “vertebral subluxation complex”  and sadly I would have to hold up my hands and say, not a lot. </p>
<p>Before sceptics get too excited I would qualify that by saying the anatomical and physiological principles are there to make subluxation theory a legitimate hypothesis for scientific investigation and I would be delighted if chiropractic researchers put some of their resources into subluxation theory  rather than  the more profitable area of back pain. In the mean time my clients and I will just have to rely on anecdotes, not a perfect situation, but if they are happy with that so am I, we are where we are.</p>
<p> Having said that the president of the British Chiropractic Association Richard Brown has this week come out in agreement with the skeptic view of  “subluxation”. As his “plethora of evidence” was rubished last year. I dont suppose traditional chiropractors should be too worried by anyone now trying to claim that Richard Brown is a reliable source because it suits a particular point of view. I believe thats called &#8220;confirmation bias&#8221;</p>
<p>The medical profession were making dodgy claims in 1998, perhaps they have cleaned up their act, better than the BCA did,<br />
<a href="http://ukpmc.ac.uk/articles/PMC1113581" rel="nofollow">http://ukpmc.ac.uk/articles/PMC1113581</a></p>
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		<title>By: Blue Wode</title>
		<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/06/the-cracklash-begins/comment-page-1/#comment-6644</link>
		<dc:creator>Blue Wode</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jun 2010 18:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenosblog.com/?p=1807#comment-6644</guid>
		<description>Stefaan, have you contacted the GCC about what they really mean the chiropractic subluxation to be?

As far as my understanding of the chiropractic subluxation goes, I get the distinct impression that it&#039;s whatever chiropractors want it to be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stefaan, have you contacted the GCC about what they really mean the chiropractic subluxation to be?</p>
<p>As far as my understanding of the chiropractic subluxation goes, I get the distinct impression that it&#8217;s whatever chiropractors want it to be.</p>
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		<title>By: Stefaan Vossen</title>
		<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/06/the-cracklash-begins/comment-page-1/#comment-6643</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefaan Vossen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jun 2010 18:22:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenosblog.com/?p=1807#comment-6643</guid>
		<description>@Blue Wode
I am having some trouble understanding you too, I guess we are cross wires at the moment.
That said I do think that the fetish held here for RCT&#039;s is disproportionate and not representative of clinical reality (in any healthcare field), in the same way as equating the GCC&#039;s statement to anything but an agreement that the vertebral subluxation concept is an historical, but still valid theoretical model which is lacking in RCT-evidence.
The other thing we (you and me) seem to be getting crossed is the idea of what this subluxation concept is... what do you understand it to be?
Stefaan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Blue Wode<br />
I am having some trouble understanding you too, I guess we are cross wires at the moment.<br />
That said I do think that the fetish held here for RCT&#8217;s is disproportionate and not representative of clinical reality (in any healthcare field), in the same way as equating the GCC&#8217;s statement to anything but an agreement that the vertebral subluxation concept is an historical, but still valid theoretical model which is lacking in RCT-evidence.<br />
The other thing we (you and me) seem to be getting crossed is the idea of what this subluxation concept is&#8230; what do you understand it to be?<br />
Stefaan</p>
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		<title>By: IainD</title>
		<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/06/the-cracklash-begins/comment-page-1/#comment-6640</link>
		<dc:creator>IainD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jun 2010 18:04:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenosblog.com/?p=1807#comment-6640</guid>
		<description>Stefaan

&quot;@IainD
my evidence to base what on? As I stated in my response to BW, that is the question. What assumption did I jump to?&quot;

Eh? I assume you&#039;re just confused, but, as I said in my last comment, you said:

&quot;“@BW how do you deduce from what I am writing that I “base my evidence” on my clinical experience?”&quot;

But Blue Wode did not say that he deduced that you based your evidence on your clinical experience - he *asked* you if you did. It was a question, not a statement. The question he asked was:

&quot;Are you saying that you base your evidence on your clinical experience, i.e. what you see with your own eyes?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stefaan</p>
<p>&#8220;@IainD<br />
my evidence to base what on? As I stated in my response to BW, that is the question. What assumption did I jump to?&#8221;</p>
<p>Eh? I assume you&#8217;re just confused, but, as I said in my last comment, you said:</p>
<p>&#8220;“@BW how do you deduce from what I am writing that I “base my evidence” on my clinical experience?”&#8221;</p>
<p>But Blue Wode did not say that he deduced that you based your evidence on your clinical experience &#8211; he *asked* you if you did. It was a question, not a statement. The question he asked was:</p>
<p>&#8220;Are you saying that you base your evidence on your clinical experience, i.e. what you see with your own eyes?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Blue Wode</title>
		<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/06/the-cracklash-begins/comment-page-1/#comment-6638</link>
		<dc:creator>Blue Wode</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jun 2010 17:30:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenosblog.com/?p=1807#comment-6638</guid>
		<description>Thank you, IainD, for clarifying my previous comment.

@ Stefaan Vossen

I don’t find it easy to comprehend your comments.

Interestingly, Zeno highlighted a very pertinent question made by Christopher Kent, President of the Foundation for Verebral Subluxation:

Quote
“Are we a profession with a clearly defined mission or are we a profession simply seeking some niche which offers access to a slice of the health care pie?”

I think that gets near to the hub of the issue, i.e., are chiropractors evidence-based or anecdote-based?  They cannot be all things to all people.  Whether claims are advertised, or made in a clinical setting (upon which, it follows, treatment will be administered), one would expect them to be backed up with good, scientific evidence and a favourable risk/benefit profile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, IainD, for clarifying my previous comment.</p>
<p>@ Stefaan Vossen</p>
<p>I don’t find it easy to comprehend your comments.</p>
<p>Interestingly, Zeno highlighted a very pertinent question made by Christopher Kent, President of the Foundation for Verebral Subluxation:</p>
<p>Quote<br />
“Are we a profession with a clearly defined mission or are we a profession simply seeking some niche which offers access to a slice of the health care pie?”</p>
<p>I think that gets near to the hub of the issue, i.e., are chiropractors evidence-based or anecdote-based?  They cannot be all things to all people.  Whether claims are advertised, or made in a clinical setting (upon which, it follows, treatment will be administered), one would expect them to be backed up with good, scientific evidence and a favourable risk/benefit profile.</p>
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		<title>By: Stefaan Vossen</title>
		<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/06/the-cracklash-begins/comment-page-1/#comment-6637</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefaan Vossen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jun 2010 17:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenosblog.com/?p=1807#comment-6637</guid>
		<description>@IainD
my evidence to base what on? As I stated in my response to BW, that is the question. What assumption did I jump to?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@IainD<br />
my evidence to base what on? As I stated in my response to BW, that is the question. What assumption did I jump to?</p>
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		<title>By: IainD</title>
		<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/06/the-cracklash-begins/comment-page-1/#comment-6636</link>
		<dc:creator>IainD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jun 2010 17:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenosblog.com/?p=1807#comment-6636</guid>
		<description>Stefaan

&quot;@BW how do you deduce from what I am writing that I “base my evidence” on my clinical experience?&quot;

It looks to me like Blue Wode is *asking* you what you base your evidence on and he&#039;s not made the assumption you jumped to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stefaan</p>
<p>&#8220;@BW how do you deduce from what I am writing that I “base my evidence” on my clinical experience?&#8221;</p>
<p>It looks to me like Blue Wode is *asking* you what you base your evidence on and he&#8217;s not made the assumption you jumped to.</p>
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