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	<title>Comments on: Discover Chiropractic</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/01/discover-chiropractic/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/01/discover-chiropractic/</link>
	<description>The random thoughts of sceptical activist</description>
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		<item>
		<title>By: fed up</title>
		<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/01/discover-chiropractic/comment-page-3/#comment-3624</link>
		<dc:creator>fed up</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 16:39:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenosblog.com/?p=1252#comment-3624</guid>
		<description>Just no pleasing some people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just no pleasing some people.</p>
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		<title>By: Blue Wode</title>
		<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/01/discover-chiropractic/comment-page-3/#comment-3623</link>
		<dc:creator>Blue Wode</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 16:25:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenosblog.com/?p=1252#comment-3623</guid>
		<description>@ fed up

Yes, I have seen the report, but not read the pdf yet. FYI, Zeno has just blogged about it here:
http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/02/the-gccs-plethora/

“…at face value, it is a damning indictment of a vast number of claims chiropractors have been making”.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ fed up</p>
<p>Yes, I have seen the report, but not read the pdf yet. FYI, Zeno has just blogged about it here:<br />
<a href="http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/02/the-gccs-plethora/" rel="nofollow">http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/02/the-gccs-plethora/</a></p>
<p>“…at face value, it is a damning indictment of a vast number of claims chiropractors have been making”.</p>
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		<title>By: fed up</title>
		<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/01/discover-chiropractic/comment-page-3/#comment-3620</link>
		<dc:creator>fed up</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:53:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenosblog.com/?p=1252#comment-3620</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sure you&#039;ve seen this.
http://www.chiroandosteo.com/content/pdf/1746-1340-18-4.pdf

&quot;Few, if any, trials of manual therapy have
been designed to show that an established treatment is ineffective. Many negative
trials are too small to have been certain that an important therapeutic effect has not
been overlooked. Thus, it is important when reading this report to remember that
absence of evidence of effectiveness is not the same as evidence of absence of
effectiveness.&quot;

&quot;there is now little dispute amongst knowledgeable
scientists that manipulation is of value in the management of back pain, neck pain and
headaches that make up 90% or more of all patients who seek chiropractic care. At the
same time, a close review of the evidence, including the recent large population
studies in Ontario (2), have demonstrated that the incidence of serious side effects
such as stroke following chiropractic care is extremely rare and is probably not related
to manipulation in most patients but due to the fact that patients develop neck pain or
headache as a result of a dissection of a vertebral artery that progresses through the
natural history of dissection to stroke irrespective of the clinician the patient consults.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ve seen this.<br />
<a href="http://www.chiroandosteo.com/content/pdf/1746-1340-18-4.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.chiroandosteo.com/content/pdf/1746-1340-18-4.pdf</a></p>
<p>&#8220;Few, if any, trials of manual therapy have<br />
been designed to show that an established treatment is ineffective. Many negative<br />
trials are too small to have been certain that an important therapeutic effect has not<br />
been overlooked. Thus, it is important when reading this report to remember that<br />
absence of evidence of effectiveness is not the same as evidence of absence of<br />
effectiveness.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;there is now little dispute amongst knowledgeable<br />
scientists that manipulation is of value in the management of back pain, neck pain and<br />
headaches that make up 90% or more of all patients who seek chiropractic care. At the<br />
same time, a close review of the evidence, including the recent large population<br />
studies in Ontario (2), have demonstrated that the incidence of serious side effects<br />
such as stroke following chiropractic care is extremely rare and is probably not related<br />
to manipulation in most patients but due to the fact that patients develop neck pain or<br />
headache as a result of a dissection of a vertebral artery that progresses through the<br />
natural history of dissection to stroke irrespective of the clinician the patient consults.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Blue Wode</title>
		<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/01/discover-chiropractic/comment-page-3/#comment-3617</link>
		<dc:creator>Blue Wode</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:25:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenosblog.com/?p=1252#comment-3617</guid>
		<description>@ fedup

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=8</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ fedup</p>
<p><a href="http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=8" rel="nofollow">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=8</a></p>
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		<title>By: fed up</title>
		<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/01/discover-chiropractic/comment-page-3/#comment-3614</link>
		<dc:creator>fed up</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:02:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenosblog.com/?p=1252#comment-3614</guid>
		<description>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182327/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182327/" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182327/</a></p>
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		<title>By: skepticat</title>
		<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/01/discover-chiropractic/comment-page-3/#comment-3592</link>
		<dc:creator>skepticat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:18:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenosblog.com/?p=1252#comment-3592</guid>
		<description>fed up, wrote

&lt;i&gt;&quot;The questions here are being asked by several intellegent people, who probably have nothing better to do, for some reason known only to them, have a problem with anything they don’t beleive in because ” the evidence is not up to standard”
Now these people may not be qualifed to examine scientific evidence, they almost certainly know nothing about chiropractic yet they think for some strange reason they are acting on behalf of the great british public!!!&lt;/i&gt;


fed up, you&#039;re repeating same fallacious argument that David keeps making. 

You surely agree that anything concerning people&#039;s health is a matter of public interest. You presumably also agree that it is important to establish the truth about therapies that are promulgated as beneficial to people&#039;s health, whatever these are.

But instead of welcoming questions that are aimed at eliciting the truth, you, David and any number of other altmed therapists who (&#039;probably having nothing better to do than&#039;) comment on various skeptic blogs, try to get the questioners to shut up. And you do this  by resorting to ad hominems about what people do for a living, what we know or don&#039;t know already, what we are qualified to say, how we have too much time on our hands, etc. etc.

Excuse me, but we are all affected by matters of public health and we are all entitled - and &quot;qualified&quot; - to ask questions about it.

Your fallacious arguments aren&#039;t going to change anyone&#039;s mind about chiropractic and I respectfully suggest you do a course in critical reasoning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fed up, wrote</p>
<p><i>&#8220;The questions here are being asked by several intellegent people, who probably have nothing better to do, for some reason known only to them, have a problem with anything they don’t beleive in because ” the evidence is not up to standard”<br />
Now these people may not be qualifed to examine scientific evidence, they almost certainly know nothing about chiropractic yet they think for some strange reason they are acting on behalf of the great british public!!!</i></p>
<p>fed up, you&#8217;re repeating same fallacious argument that David keeps making. </p>
<p>You surely agree that anything concerning people&#8217;s health is a matter of public interest. You presumably also agree that it is important to establish the truth about therapies that are promulgated as beneficial to people&#8217;s health, whatever these are.</p>
<p>But instead of welcoming questions that are aimed at eliciting the truth, you, David and any number of other altmed therapists who (&#8216;probably having nothing better to do than&#8217;) comment on various skeptic blogs, try to get the questioners to shut up. And you do this  by resorting to ad hominems about what people do for a living, what we know or don&#8217;t know already, what we are qualified to say, how we have too much time on our hands, etc. etc.</p>
<p>Excuse me, but we are all affected by matters of public health and we are all entitled &#8211; and &#8220;qualified&#8221; &#8211; to ask questions about it.</p>
<p>Your fallacious arguments aren&#8217;t going to change anyone&#8217;s mind about chiropractic and I respectfully suggest you do a course in critical reasoning.</p>
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		<title>By: Blue Wode</title>
		<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/01/discover-chiropractic/comment-page-3/#comment-3591</link>
		<dc:creator>Blue Wode</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:17:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenosblog.com/?p=1252#comment-3591</guid>
		<description>Fedup, let&#039;s get real. Of course a publication entitled &#039;The *Scientific* Review of Alternative Medicine&#039; is going to evaluate the evidence.  Your quoting the opinions of a naturopath really doesn&#039;t do you any favours:
http://www.dryarnell.com/opinions.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fedup, let&#8217;s get real. Of course a publication entitled &#8216;The *Scientific* Review of Alternative Medicine&#8217; is going to evaluate the evidence.  Your quoting the opinions of a naturopath really doesn&#8217;t do you any favours:<br />
<a href="http://www.dryarnell.com/opinions.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.dryarnell.com/opinions.html</a></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: fedup</title>
		<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/01/discover-chiropractic/comment-page-3/#comment-3589</link>
		<dc:creator>fedup</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenosblog.com/?p=1252#comment-3589</guid>
		<description>BW 
&quot;The founding editor of this publication, Wallace Simpson, has long opposed natural medicine in any form, without actually evaluating the evidence involved. In fact, he has said, “When we began the journal, we did so simply because no one else was doing it. By definition, we have to start with the premise that alternative medicine claims are all unproven or false” (CSICOP 1999). To start with the assumption that all claims are false is not scientific and in fact reveals incredible bias.&quot;

&quot;In conclusion, SRAM should simply be ignored as an ongoing diatribe against all of natural medicine by a group that, by their own admission, starts with a set conclusion and basically ignores the full breadth of evidence available on the subject.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BW<br />
&#8220;The founding editor of this publication, Wallace Simpson, has long opposed natural medicine in any form, without actually evaluating the evidence involved. In fact, he has said, “When we began the journal, we did so simply because no one else was doing it. By definition, we have to start with the premise that alternative medicine claims are all unproven or false” (CSICOP 1999). To start with the assumption that all claims are false is not scientific and in fact reveals incredible bias.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;In conclusion, SRAM should simply be ignored as an ongoing diatribe against all of natural medicine by a group that, by their own admission, starts with a set conclusion and basically ignores the full breadth of evidence available on the subject.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Blue Wode</title>
		<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/01/discover-chiropractic/comment-page-3/#comment-3588</link>
		<dc:creator>Blue Wode</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:12:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenosblog.com/?p=1252#comment-3588</guid>
		<description>Fedup, the appeal to popularity argument (argumentum ad populum), does not make something so. It remains apparent that chiropractic is increasingly struggling to find good evidence for its interventions beyond non-specific (placebo) effects.  

I suggest that you have a read through the late Barry Beyerstein’s classic essay, ‘Social and Judgmental Biases That Seem to Make Inert Treatments Work’. It is a thorough analysis of alternative medicine and common errors of reasoning:
http://www.sram.org/0302/bias.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fedup, the appeal to popularity argument (argumentum ad populum), does not make something so. It remains apparent that chiropractic is increasingly struggling to find good evidence for its interventions beyond non-specific (placebo) effects.  </p>
<p>I suggest that you have a read through the late Barry Beyerstein’s classic essay, ‘Social and Judgmental Biases That Seem to Make Inert Treatments Work’. It is a thorough analysis of alternative medicine and common errors of reasoning:<br />
<a href="http://www.sram.org/0302/bias.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.sram.org/0302/bias.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: fedup</title>
		<link>http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/01/discover-chiropractic/comment-page-3/#comment-3587</link>
		<dc:creator>fedup</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:27:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zenosblog.com/?p=1252#comment-3587</guid>
		<description>&quot;Given that the questions being asked by the skeptical posters here are clearly in the public interest,&quot;

Now thats funny. The questions here are being asked by several intellegent people, who probably have nothing better to do, for some reason known only to them, have a problem with anything they don&#039;t beleive in because &quot; the evidence is not up to standard&quot;
Now these people may not be qualifed to examine scientific evidence, they almost certainly know nothing about chiropractic yet they think for some strange reason they are acting on behalf of the great british public!!!

I have over 4000 members of the british public that would tell you they have, and still do, benefit from chiropractic care. My colleague down stairs has the same. David will probably have as many or even more. I&#039;m sure they would all be really pleased to know you are asking these questions on their behalf even though you don&#039;t have a clue as to what you are actually talking about and thousands and thousands of the british public will tell you you are wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Given that the questions being asked by the skeptical posters here are clearly in the public interest,&#8221;</p>
<p>Now thats funny. The questions here are being asked by several intellegent people, who probably have nothing better to do, for some reason known only to them, have a problem with anything they don&#8217;t beleive in because &#8221; the evidence is not up to standard&#8221;<br />
Now these people may not be qualifed to examine scientific evidence, they almost certainly know nothing about chiropractic yet they think for some strange reason they are acting on behalf of the great british public!!!</p>
<p>I have over 4000 members of the british public that would tell you they have, and still do, benefit from chiropractic care. My colleague down stairs has the same. David will probably have as many or even more. I&#8217;m sure they would all be really pleased to know you are asking these questions on their behalf even though you don&#8217;t have a clue as to what you are actually talking about and thousands and thousands of the british public will tell you you are wrong.</p>
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