Zeno's Blog

The problem with your jumping on the post Simon Singh/chiropractic bandwagon is that you betray your poorly thought out argument and show a distinct lack of knowledge base.

If you're going to seriously challenge osteopathy's claims you need to demonstrate an awareness of the evidence base for and against osteopathic treatment of these conditions and what the evidence is that the more "medical" treatments can do any better. I'm fairly certain you have done absolutely no research into this matter whatsoever, but i might be wrong…..am i?
If you're going to take some kind of scientific/rational high ground you have to be prepared to walk the walk, and from what i can see, all you're doing is mudslinging.

What's your agenda and what's motivating you to attack osteopaths when you are coming from an evidently uninformed position and are accusing highly qualified primary health care professionals that they dont know what they're doing.

If you'ld like some information about osteopathy please feel free to contact me:

rickosteo@googlemail.com

Hope you all feel better after getting all your petulant wee comments off your chests, guys.

JB, way to cast aspersions. As even a cursory glance through this blog will reveal, it is not the norm for Zeno to ignore comments…at least those that are worth responding to. But sometimes other things take priority.

Rick, calm down. Zeno has made one complaint about one osteopath to the ASA. That isn't taking "some kind of scientific/rational highground" nor is it "mudslinging". To complain to the ASA one needs only be suspicious of claims made in advertisements. Don't you worry your little brain about it; this complaint is as much a test of the ASA as anything else.

That said, how can anyone with their reasoning faculties intact, be anything but suspicious of a therapy defined on the website of the British Institute of Osteopaths as stimluating the "preparation and distribution of fluids and free forces of the body" and promoting the "cooperation and harmony inside the body as a mechanism". That sounds like woo of the first order and yet we have someone claiming this therapy can treat whiplash and migraine. And people pay him to do this?

Zeno seems to be happy with the fact that his blog post comes up on google. No doubt is because this will affect the Osteopath's business negatively and cause them distress whilst the Osteopath has no chance to defend themselves until the complaint is resolved, for all Zeno knows in their favour, but which may not be for some months. What a very unpleasant attitude to have to other humans.

Couple of things.

Interesting how people's responses online are invariably patronising when they disagree with someone else, saying things on here which they'd never have the courage to say face to face. Im absolutely fine with an open and honest debate Mr Skepticat but a bit less of the cheek Sir if you dont mind.

Since when is taking "some kind of scientific/rational highground" and/or "mudslinging" dependent on the number of complaints made? The action is the same once as it would be repeated a thousand-fold, and he is clearly implying that osteopathy has no scientifically sound theoretical basis. He's making this grand implication without stating that he knows otherwise and, im fairly sure, without having done much if any of his own research into the subject. This isnt really good enough. If you are going to set up a blog with an agenda to "out quacks", if you devote time to running down a profession then one would have thought the least you'd do is some research.

One of the things which you devout skeptics seem to fail to realise is that just because a subject hasnt been subject to RCTs, it doesnt mean it lacks evidence. The hierarchy of evidence means that some types of evidence are of greater scientific value than others.

However if there hasnt been an RCT conducted then its perfectly accptable to use whatever evidence is available until its disproved by a methodologically superior trial.
Theres plenty of evidence for osteopathy just a lack of high quality trials looking into it.

Rick, it's 'Madam' actually and I wonder if you have any idea what a pompous prat you sound. Look at your three posts. If you don't like being patronised, don't troll someone's blog airing your ignorant assumptions about them.

You seem to have misunderstood my post. Whether it's one complaint or one thousand complaints to the ASA, it is neither taking the highground nor mudslinging except in the perception of those being complained about and any allies they might have. The ASA is there to protect the public from false claims and anyone who suspects a claim about something important may be false has a moral obligation to challenge that claim by any legal means in order to protect the public. I trust you agree the public should be protected from false claims?

Most skeptics are well aware of the heirarchy of evidence and I fail to see what bearing this has on this complaint. As long as the ASA are satisfied by whatever evidence is offered to support this complaint, then that will be the end of the matter, even if the evidence is of poor quality.

As for your whining about zeno not being informed…how would you know? This is an assumption on your part, it's also a straw man and of no consequence.

I find this subject very interesting. I suppose you always do when it affects you personally.

I have tried chiropractors previously and I currently see an osteopath. None of this was before I had been to my doctor many times with lower back problems over the last 20 years.

I also currently see an NHS phsyiotherapist. Interestingly he gave me the same three excercises to do as the NHS gave me 15 years ago! It may even be the same photocopied piece of paper! Is this a tried an tested technique that works or has treatment of lower back pain had no recent advances? I'll find out as the treatment continues.

I find it interesting that the physiotherapist is concentrating on mobility in my lower spine whereas the osteopath is concentrating on stiffness in my leg muscles. They are both 'treating' the same problem and I think both methods may have some merit.

My questions for those of you who know about these thing are: Are there any proper clinical trials of osteopathy? If not, why not? Are there clinical trials of physiotherapy? If not, why not? and If not, then where does that leave a patient like me?

Cheers,

Maggie- you can get degrees in homeopathy- just because you can waste many years learning a subject has nothing to do with the validity of the subject itself. Chiropracters are regulated- but when challenged you can see what a mess teh FCC have got into.

I don’t want to disparage osteopathy but there needs to be a lot more evidence before it can be advertised as a treatment- crying about lack of money doesn’t cut it. If you want to make claims you have an obligation to have the evidence to back it up- that is all zeno has asked the ASA to investigate.

That’s a curious comment in your last para, magpie, if I may say so. Obviously zeno does have an axe to grind about altmed – as I do myself – and that’s why he complains about it. It’s interesting to me that the criticism most frequently levelled at those who take the trouble to complain about things they believe to be wrong is that they should be complaining about other things instead (or as well).

There is only so much time available for this kind of activity and I’d respectfully suggest to anyone with a bugbear about anything that they do their own complaints about the things they don’t like and leave the rest of us to complain about what we don’t like.

Btw, re your comment on my blog that I am ‘blinkered’ – I’m still waiting for you to start a discussion at ThinkHumanism so that you can show me where I’m going wrong.

Regards

Hello both Zeno and Skepticat, thank you both for your responses, i enjoy both your blogs and am interested in your standpoints regarding alt med.
I agree with you both that kitchen towels are not really at issue here but i wanted to know whether it was the flouting of advertising guidelines or just chiropractors that got your goats.So why is alt med such a bugbear? (Skepticat does explain in her blog) but why Zeno? …
Anyway Zeno i started reading your link to the excellent Quackometer and was initially a little put off by the inclusion of Yoga, surely this cannot be in the same quack bracket as homeopathy? This i think is partly the my problem with these debates that there is no distinction between alternative therapies (certainly not in this blog) So I feel that the $34 billion research may perhaps be a little inflated as seemingly everything is lumped in together regardless, though i take your point that it is big business, should be evidence based and yes big quacka corp may have a vested interest in not investigating their claims too closely.
That said it’s the little guy you are attacking here and i am just curious to where the motivation for your efforts comes from?

Skepticat you make a valid point, i accept that you should only be complaining/blogging about the things you believe wrong, i just hope for balance in the evidence presented for your cause.
I still think you may be a little blinkered (though am less confident with fewer G&T’s in the bloodstream)I will try and start a discussion soon on ThinkHumanism and would value you input and yes it’s going to be about that NHS MMR vac. leaflet.
(Was going to sign off with clever quote but too tired, perhaps next time) Magpie.

I find it ironic that the pro medic here think that their world is somehow cast in concrete as the absolute truth. Now your own researchers are telling us all that the so called ‘EBM’ bandwagon is fraudulent, if the drug pushers can publish what they like and ignore the true facts of how bullshit their dope is you haven’t got a leg to stand on.

EBM is concocted bull, a contrived scam of the biggest order known to man, no wonder this site is so boring! Are you guys into shoot em up computer games?

How about complaining to the ASA about Tamiflu?

Leading researchers today call for access to all clinical trial data (published and unpublished) to allow drugs to be independently assessed by the scientific community. Tom Jefferson and colleagues from the Cochrane Group argue that the current system for assessing the safety and effectiveness of drugs, based on published trial data only, is “wholly inadequate” and “ethically dubious.”

They propose a new approach that would allow in-depth scrutiny of the complete set of trial data for a new drug. Their call comes after they reviewed the evidence for the antiviral drug oseltamivir (Tamiflu), and were unable to find sufficient published data to support the conclusion that oseltamivir reduces complications in healthy adults.

The Cochrane team’s concern deepened after finding reports of ten serious adverse events in patients enrolled in two key manufacturer-funded trials that were not reported in journal publications arising from those tr ials. They conclude: “It is time the media, the Cochrane Collaboration, and any reader interested in knowing what they are prescribing or are being prescribed increase the pressure on policy makers. If you swallow a medication, you need to know how it works – for real.”

The standard that osteopathy and anything alternative is being judged against doesn’t exist. It’s a circular argument, you claim the high standard of medical chuff and training which is being shown to fall at many hurdles.

You dismiss anything that can’t be bought or sold and hide behind myths like swine flu to claim some kind of central authority that has fake evidence to prop it up.

Even the BMJ showed virtual disgust at the Tamiflu scam last year. If the world of septics was really about being sceptical of crap the balance would be automatic, but your rebranding of ‘common sense’ into ‘corporate sense’ stinks.

Anagrams of ZENOBLOG – GLOB ZONE OR BOZO GLEN sort of sums it up really.
What do you think about the FDA lobbying to ban people from growing their own vegetables because this ought to be done by ‘real food growers’? This feeds into the Codex Alimentarius where only ‘approved foods’ can be grown.

As to the evidence for osteopathy, it speaks for itself. It got where it is with no corporate support, no slick adverts but because the public benefit from it, if they were killing people their insurance would be prohibitive and under common law alone they would all be in prison. Unlike doctors who seem to escape proper scrutiny, unless of course they dare to question fallacies like vaccination.

If medicine didn’t have the finance that it generates by scaring the public shitless at every turn with fake health scares, to bribe politicians and media, most of it would have sunk. Advances in A and E aside, the rest of the NHS is disease management and this alone is an ASA issue, where is the healthcare?

Back to evidence, your presented standard of evidence requirement is like a puff in the wind, you haven’t got a leg to stand on, do you really kid yourself that your mission is so important!
,

The ASA requires ‘robust clinical evidence’ such as that published in ‘respected peer review journals’. Perhaps Alan you could highlight where these journals are so that the opportunity to submit work for ‘proper review’ might be done.

Many ‘orthodox’ medical systems advertise their wares by using the deaths of children to scare people into using unproven ‘medicines’, the media is also complicit in this deceit.

There is no point validating a fraudulent and flawed audit process, you can’t polish a crap. It is a good job the public are more intelligent than your mates over in the septic tank, you are like something out of the Salem witch trials, but funny rather than scary, sort of Halloween meets Noddy.

If the standard you seem to worship had some kind of kudos attached to it, you may have a point.

Nancy, when you quote from another source, it is customary to credit it and, if possible, to provide a link.

The last three paragraph’s of Nancy’s first post are an article that appears in the BMJ here:

http://group.bmj.com/group/media/latest-news/call-for-full-access-to-tamiflu-trial-data-to-allow-for-independent-scrutiny

I’m sure nobody would take issue with anything said in the article and we all applaud the Cochrane Collaboration for their fantastic work in upholding the high standards demanded by the EBM movement. But what purpose does it serve here beyond illustrating Nancy’s poor reasoning? None.

Nancy said,

“If the drug pushers can publish what they like and ignore the true facts of how bullshit their dope is you haven’t got a leg to stand on.”

Even if it were true that the drug pushers can publish what they like and ignore the true facts, how does it follow that we don’t have a leg to stand on? Does it somehow make the claims of this osteopath less false?

Nancy said, “How about complaining to the ASA about Tamiflu?”

Um….you seem to be a bit confused about what the ASA is. That being the case, I’m not sure Zeno’s last post won’t be a bit above your head. I’ll try to simplify.

The letters ASA stand for Advertising Standards Authority. Advertising includes paying for adverts to appear in newspapers seen by thousands or even millions, as this osteopath did and, in a couple of months it will include advertisements on the web too. Unfortunately, it does not regulate the pronuoncements of politicians, the promotions that drug companies might make to retailers or health service providers, the quality of reports of clinical trials or the quality of the trials themselves. If you can grasp this much, you will begin to appreciate why your suggestion sounds ignorant.

If you can find an advertisement for anything related to tamiflu that you think may contravene the Codes of Advertising Practice or, for that matter, Trading Standards or any other regulatory body, then let’s see it or at least hear about it.

A couple more things:

“You dismiss anything that can’t be bought or sold and hide behind myths like swine flu to claim some kind of central authority that has fake evidence to prop it up.”

I’ve read all Zeno’s posts and don’t see any evidence here to support this accusation. Please say why you think he “dismisses anything that can’t be bought or sold”. If you are trying to imply that he is focussing his complaints on misleading claims being made to the public (i.e. items that ordinary members of the public are being lured into spending their money on) rather than doing something about the concerns you are highlighting, please say what exactly you think he – as a member of the public – should be doing instead. And please use your loaf and don’t come up with any more daft suggestions like ‘complain to the ASA about tamiflu’. Zeno has helpfully provided you with links that show you how to do what he is doing. Now it’s your turn to show us exactly how you think he should do whatever it is you think he should be doing.

Until then, I’m afraid you’re the one without a leg to stand on.

What’s with the anagrams, by the way? Are you 12 years old?

Zemen

What are you on, do you suck the cock of authority all the time?

When I want your opinion I will ask for it. Who the hell asked you guys to ‘protect the public, I see no qualifications, no proper training, just bigoted opinion.

It’s like Mary Whitehouse all over again, Zono 0 you dork, the ASA are only protecting their jobs, this public protection racket has just been legalised and it’s a shame such an obviously intelligent boy has been hoodwinked, same with the girly cat septic.

No I am not a medical doctor, if you knew your history pussy you would know that the word ‘quack’ is what orthodox doctors were originally called because their no 1 poison was mercurial derivatives.

You don’t have an argument, you have a religious conviction, it’s like talking to the JW’s. Keep up the good work, not long left now.

Hi Nancy

It’s reassuring to see you’ve ignored my question of what exactly you think Zeno should be doing about things like the “tamiflu scam”. Here’s a few more things for you to pretend I haven’t said:

If you try to lecture me on anything to do with language or history, you risk embarrassing yourself very badly. (Not that this has inhibited you so far – I suppose that’s the advantage of anonymity.)

In fact, I am old enough not only to remember the word ‘quack’ being used colloquially to refer to any orthodox physician but to have done so myself. The word ‘quack’ nowadays, however, is used colloquially to describe practitioners of quackery which, in turn, is used to refer to scientifically implausible and/or unsupported therapies. Hope that clarifies.

As for your question about who asked us to protect the public, here’s the thing you are missing: We are the public. By doing what we can to expose the lies, ignorance and lack of professionalism of those who line their pockets promoting pre-science cult therapies, we are trying to protect ourselves and our loved ones, some of whom have been ripped off or otherwise hurt because of such people.

We don’t need qualifications or training to complain about misinformation to regulatory bodies. I must say I’m rather surprised at the illiberalism implicit in your question. It would appear that you think practitioners should be free to claim whatever they like and that nobody should have the temerity to complain unless they have some unspecified “qualifications” and “proper training”. Is that correct?

I’m not actually aware of any qualifications in the discipline of submitting complaints about misleading advertising but, given Zeno’s extensive experience in it, you can rest assured that he is well equipped to provide “proper training” to anyone else who cares to have a go and plenty do. In fact, that is precisely why he was asked by a member of the public to set up the Nightingale Collaboration and why so many other members of the public are delighted and are offering their support.

So you see, it’s all good.

Are you a lady cat or a lady boy?

The idea that ‘doctor knows best’ is bullshit, either you work for these sons of or you are in their employ. No reply from the fanny cat then?

In Donald Barlett and James Steele’s recent article in Vanity Fair entitled Deadly Medicine, they revealed that prescription drugs kill over 200,000 Americans. Before the drugs reached the Americans and the rest of the developed world, many of the pharmaceutical industry’s drug trials were carried out on slum dwellers who had no idea that they were part of an experiment. For some, this was the first medical attention that they had received in their lifetimes. With litigation unheard of and some signing the consent forms with an X or a thumbprint, these are the regions where the pharmaceutical industry bought the facility to silently bury their mistakes in paupers’ graves. The 14 dead babies in GlaxoSmithKline’s Synflorix vaccine trial being but one example. Pharmalot’s Ed Silverman publishes news of the list of countries where corruption as the abuse of those entrusted with power turn it to private gain. “The US also had the distinction of being cited as one of six nations whose corruption index deteriorated since 2009, along with the Czech Republic, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Madagascar and Niger,” he writes. The corruption of those invested with power who wallow in personal gain is worldwide ubiquitous.

Nancy/professor/skeptitwat or whatever you like to call yourself, I refer you back to my first response to you.

This blog is about the misleading claims made about so-called healthcare therapies to people like us i.e. ordinary members of the public, by people like you i.e. charlatans. It’s all very well whingeing about big pharma, iatrogenic deaths, etc. but I repeat the question I asked before, which you have so far ignored:

What exactly do you expect us to do about these problems?

Instead of just ranting, why not provide a link to a website where an orthodox physician is advertising an unsupported therapy to the UK general public for the purpose of financial gain in the way so many thousands of you evil money-grubbing quacks are doing?

Alternatively, just keep posting abuse under different pseudonyms. I’ve often accused quacks of being morons who can’t argue their way out of a paper bag and I love it when such people take the time to prove me right.

Kind regards

Vaccines already save millions of lives and there is nothing weasley about saying many more lives could be saved by the development of new vaccines to prevent severe diarrhea and pneumonia.

How in the name of humanity can you oppose vaccines? You really are a despicable piece of filth. No wonder you’re anonymous.

As for murdering alternative therapists. Try here: http://whatstheharm.net/

Zeno, ‘the house of pills’ has its evidence base for efficacy in disrepute, ex editors of the BMJ and NEJM have both said you can’t believe anything you read in a peer reviewed medical journal due to funding conflicts, the medical industry has profit before care as its mission statement judging by the number of drug death scandals abound, so telling us that this is the standard the public needs to judge alternatives against, sounds like rhetorical bullshit.

How can you accept that a ‘properly trained doctor’ is doing anything to help a patient with arthritis by prescribing painkillers, anti metabolites and TNFI drugs? How the hell has the RCT placebo banana method come to the conclusion that this is truthful science?

Are you telling us that ‘properly trained doctors’ that are prescribing painkillers, anti metabolites and TNFI drugs to ‘treat’ arthritis are sane, scientific and truthful? The whole of the medical world you seem to judge everything else by is in disrepute, ex editors of BMJ NEJM have all gone on record as saying nothing published in a medical peer reviewed journal can be believed due to funding corruption issues.

I see the fanny cat has pissed off.

Playing the game of banning the posts that show you up, come on where’s the fanny cat?